Natchai Massive Argued and Got Burned, Left the Thread

[supercat]

Yep. So there's a hot topic I participated in Ubi forums and Natchai, the community manager, said something and argued regarding the game and he got burned. I'll drop the link to the thread and copy. Sorry for the mess, I'm on mobile phone at the moment and I'll fix this thread later. I just want to share what he said before they delete it.

It's all start from this, as quoted:

Firecrest and Blind are more heavily distributed in the UG than the other gear sets, that's correct.

Some thing to know about phases however; if you play 3 phase mission on Hard for instance, you have a good chance that the loot you'll get is of a higher tier than normal (the next tier, not the highest tier). If you're already on the highest tier of gear of course, there isn't a lot more we can do 

...

Mind you, I said they're distributed more heavily, you can however get all the other gear sets from the Underground as well AND the team is looking to perhaps up that ante in the near future, but I can't share any info regarding it.

Regarding people who are requesting us to make it possible for all venues to drop all sets, there are a few issues with this. First, it will heavily sway even more in RNG's way. Think about it, at the moment you know which venues tend to offer certain sets more, thus if you want a specific set you can focus on that content. If it is not this way, you'll run whatever content you choose and might not end up getting the gear set you want for a long time, factoring in all the gear sets we have currently and possible future gear sets.
Second, if we make all content drop all loot, unweighted, then most of the content will be ignored because players will look for the easiest/fastest way to gather loot and then not bother with the rest. This might seem like a great idea to some of you, as you might be able to gear up faster, but this will be boring and is not the dev team's intention. After all, we want players to play all content, or at least most of it, not just a tiny slice.

I'm not saying our current system is perfect, but the devs are working on it to improve it. The suggestion of unweighted distribution for all content however, is not the way to go. Not for the dev team, and when you look at it honestly, not for the players either.

...

I'm not going to wade in this discussion much further, but I ask you this:

If all venues dropped all gear sets, i.e. incursions, HVT's, Dark Zone, Underground and whatever else may come along, do you honestly believe most people will play everything, or that they will play the one thing that is deemed most efficient re: time spent/rewards gained?

Keep in mind we've already seen evidence of this in the past with Bullet King, Falcon Lost cheesing and what else...

It's very unlikely in this scenario then that it will go as you mention 

...

Source: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1469149-So-we-completed-3-Phase-UG-with-5-Directives-and/page2

This guy screwed up real bad and people been busting what he said up there, especially regarding the loot spread on all modes, which if they are against it, that means they're against their own dark zone idea. What do you guys think?

 

[quinch1199]

My assumption has always been that the DZ was dropping all types of loot UNTIL additional content was added. Then that loot was spread out over the other content or rather new loot types were brought into the new content and remained exclusive drops for that content.

If I've heard Massive claiming the DZ would always drop all loot, I've forgotten and I've never thought that was its intended use anyway. 

Personally I agree with his views and aims. Keeping some gear types as exclusive to certain content encourages players to run other content .... not ideal for me as I try to avoid PvP at all costs but I accept that and I don't feel like I'm going to lose out just because I can't get a specific type of equipment as there's plenty of other gear sets which are of at least equal even if they have different perks. 

Also, the NEED to have "the best" gear is a PvP thing in the main, if you're running a character focused on PvP play then having to run some PvE to get certain gear should be a complete breeze! Likewise if the gear you need is only available in the PvP arena then ... what's to complain about?

I'm against spreading all Gear over all activities for precisely the reasons he's stated... you'll get players constantly grinding... say ... Falcon Lost on Challenge or Ultra over and over and over again just until they get that one item drop.

I've see this countless times in WoW for example. Certain Instances drop certain items say 20% of the time... players want that item as "its the best at ..." and will repeat the same Instance countless times until they get it then move on and personally....THAT IS SO BORING! Boring for the player doing it but really boring for the players in the Instance with him as they just get dragged along every time, fast as possible...basically carried and don't get a chance to learn the dungeon themselves.

So, yeah, I agree with Massives stance on this. Certain Gear Sets should be exclusive drops to certain content. 

 

[MichFan]

I don't understand why people would be mad at the Devs of this game for keeping the content drops to specific locations. It is in THEIR best interests to have it set that way to ensure people are still investing money into the game its self. 

Maybe I am in the minority here but I feel like this game, although it has had its share of bumps along the way, has continued to get better and better with each update. It has kept my interest enough to where I am still playing it almost every evening for at least an hour or so "grinding" for gear. With all of the incursions, HVTs, and UG now plus the DZ there is enough variety to keep PVE and PVP players busy. 

It is just one of those things where people will ALWAYS find a reason to complain ... 

 

[quinch1199]

I don't understand why people would be mad at the Devs of this game for keeping the content drops to specific locations. It is in THEIR best interests to have it set that way to ensure people are still investing money into the game its self. 

Maybe I am in the minority here but I feel like this game, although it has had its share of bumps along the way, has continued to get better and better with each update. It has kept my interest enough to where I am still playing it almost every evening for at least an hour or so "grinding" for gear. With all of the incursions, HVTs, and UG now plus the DZ there is enough variety to keep PVE and PVP players busy. 

It is just one of those things where people will ALWAYS find a reason to complain ... 

Totally agree and that makes us a minority of two so far. LOL!

When the game was released there were some reasons to complain, it glitchy, exploitable, the story mode didn't last for that many hours and the PvP was a mess.

Now virtually all the glitches are fixed, or being picked up quickly. Exploits have been dealt with (not as harshly as I'd like but..) and with each DLC drop they've added hours of content! 

I've been hugely impressed with the amount of and polish of the content for Underground. I think plenty of people forget just how terrible some games, and triple-A games, DLC's can be! 

Battlefront anyone?? Here's your season pass DLC .... two tiny maps and a playable character... "yay?"

The main fly in the soup is still PvP and I feel they've just created a monster they can't really control in that respect. It was, perhaps,  an overly ambitious plan that hasn't really worked. Nice try though. 

People also forget that two DLC's were free, that with this latest paid DLC players who don't have the season pass also got lots of free content as well. Massive & Ubi need to make money, get season passes sold, people always seem to hate it when developers want to make money. Granted some are just obvious and horrid grabs for cash but there seems so little of that going on with this game that I'm really happy with the developer AND publishers.

Compared to a great number of MMO titles I've played/still played, they're doing really well in my eyes. 

 

[supercat]

I'm against spreading all Gear over all activities for precisely the reasons he's stated... you'll get players constantly grinding... say ... Falcon Lost on Challenge or Ultra over and over and over again just until they get that one item drop.

As I posted in their forums, there are two types of player. Those who grind same thing 24/7 and those who play whatever knowing they will get random things by playing.

Would you play one mode only? 

To be honest, I won't too. I will play any mode as long as they are rewarding.

People would only choose one mode over another because of the efficiency. That's normal case. But if majority of players choose one specific mode, then there definitely is an imbalance between the modes, from the aspect of time, difficulty, and reward.

 

[KidGreengene]

I agree with the guy... all people would do is farm the same one easiest location over and over with four characters and then give all that gear to one character. People are already doing that. I think how the item dropping is now is fine. I want something different, I play something different or buy blueprint.

 

[quinch1199]

But if majority of players choose one specific mode, then there definitely is an imbalance between the modes, from the aspect of time, difficulty, and reward.

Which is why spreading the drops evenly would make it more frustrating for a big chunk of gamers I think. What they need to focus on is the "Why" players grind for a specific set over another. 

Ideally each Gear Set should be ... equal yet different. There shouldn't be one particular set that gives such a large advantage as to be the one-and-only that's sought out. 

THIS is where Massive are falling over in my opinion, I find their method of balancing and rebalancing clumsy at best but I'm hoping they get better. End of the day any Gear Set gives good enough bonus's to be useful in PvE for anyone ... the real differences are in PvP and as I said before that's a broken part of the game which needs serious and potentially radical attention and changes.

 

[KidGreengene]

I wouldn't be opposed to them rotating them around though. Maybe seasonally, but not monthly. 

 

[quinch1199]

I wouldn't be opposed to them rotating them around though. Maybe seasonally, but not monthly. 

That would work I think. I kinda like that idea as it means players have to read patch notes or the loading messages. 

 

[RimBlock]

I find, for how I like to play, there are two issues.

1. The drops are so skewed on some activities that you feel like you are drowning in items from a single gear set.
   
2. Blueprints are not being rotated with any significance unless you are in the DZ and have the DZ funds to purchase.
   
3. Some activities take considerably less effort to complete than others.
   

1. The drops are so skewed on some activities that you feel like you are drowning in items from a single gear set.

HVT, do I need to say more.  How often do you get non-LoneStar drops from HVT missions.  Not very often at all.  I enjoy the HVTs but really do not want Lonestar items so now just don't do them.  Getting the intel, doing the missions and, oh, another Lonestar...

2. Blueprints are not being rotated with any significance unless you are in the DZ and have the DZ funds to purchase.

They should really rotate the blueprints amoungst all the blueprint vendors and not just around the DZ vendors.  The only reason not too is to drag people kicking and screaming in to the DZ as it is the only way you can get the lvl 32 Stamina and Electronics mod blueprints and you have to grind the DZ to get the cash (a significant amount) in order to afford them.  People should not be forced in to the DZ for significant periods of time just to buy a blueprint.  How long does it take to get the phoenix creds required for a blueprint in PvE (Lexington Heroic give 50 per run).   This is really skewed to the DZ and, in my view, needs addressing especially as teh Underground has given crafting more potential with gold mats found inside for tools and electronics.  In my view they should do away with DZ credits and just use Phoenix Creds.  People will still grind there for the loot drops.

3. Some activities take considerably less effort to complete than others.

I would like to get a 268 Sentries Call item and have to grind the Falcon Lost incursion for 30 mins on heroic for a chance.  I want a 268 Lonestar I have to do a high level HVT (quite possibly pairing up and not even having to grind for the intel) in 5-10 minutes.  Lexington on Heroic is also pretty fast with an ok team, speedy with a good well organised team (I would imagine).

I agree that gear set rewards activity rotation sounds like a good way to go and you either wait until it moves to your preferred activity or you do more activities. 

 

[quinch1199]

I find, for how I like to play, there are two issues.

1. The drops are so skewed on some activities that you feel like you are drowning in items from a single gear set.
   
2. Blueprints are not being rotated with any significance unless you are in the DZ and have the DZ funds to purchase.
   
3. Some activities take considerably less effort to complete than others.
   

1. The drops are so skewed on some activities that you feel like you are drowning in items from a single gear set.

HVT, do I need to say more.  How often do you get non-LoneStar drops from HVT missions.  Not very often at all.  I enjoy the HVTs but really do not want Lonestar items so now just don't do them.  Getting the intel, doing the missions and, oh, another Lonestar...

2. Blueprints are not being rotated with any significance unless you are in the DZ and have the DZ funds to purchase.

They should really rotate the blueprints amoungst all the blueprint vendors and not just around the DZ vendors.  The only reason not too is to drag people kicking and screaming in to the DZ as it is the only way you can get the lvl 32 Stamina and Electronics mod blueprints and you have to grind the DZ to get the cash (a significant amount) in order to afford them.  People should not be forced in to the DZ for significant periods of time just to buy a blueprint.  How long does it take to get the phoenix creds required for a blueprint in PvE (Lexington Heroic give 50 per run).   This is really skewed to the DZ and, in my view, needs addressing especially as teh Underground has given crafting more potential with gold mats found inside for tools and electronics.  In my view they should do away with DZ credits and just use Phoenix Creds.  People will still grind there for the loot drops.

3. Some activities take considerably less effort to complete than others.

I would like to get a 268 Sentries Call item and have to grind the Falcon Lost incursion for 30 mins on heroic for a chance.  I want a 268 Lonestar I have to do a high level HVT (quite possibly pairing up and not even having to grind for the intel) in 5-10 minutes.  Lexington on Heroic is also pretty fast with an ok team, speedy with a good well organised team (I would imagine).

I agree that gear set rewards activity rotation sounds like a good way to go and you either wait until it moves to your preferred activity or you do more activities. 

All you say is true, BUT, to you they're barriers...negative things....but you have to view it from the developers/publishers view point.

They WANT to encourage ... force ... players into the Dark Zone. If players didn't have to go into the DZ for items would many even bother? Answer is no of course. This is not an option for a developer who've built a chunk of the game entirely around the DZ, broken or not, they must have players in that area or they've wasted a whole lot of effort and they're not ready to call it on that yet. 

Why do you want a 268 Sentries Call item instead of a 268 Lone Star? Simple, because to you its better ... supply and demand economics means that the items we want the most will be more expensive, expensive in this game means TIME TAKEN. 

These are not negative things in themselves they are pretty normal, economic choices game developers make and The Division or Massive or Ubisoft are NOT unique in this as 100's of developers do the same thing, they often hide it quite well but they do.

I would second what you said about blueprints from Vendors though....I see no real reasons to make these "exclusive" other than, another reason force people into the DZ. They're not random drops for example so I feel there's a good argument to have them available on some form of rotation.

A lot of the time players forget that games, any game aren't Burger King menu items and you can't always have everything your way. 

 

[RimBlock]

Sure the publishers and development house want to make the game a cash cow and they could do that with DLC subs.  Forcing people in to the DZ does not promotes sales but making a game that appeals to the majority does.  It is a careful balance as "you cannot please all the people all of the time".  Make it enjoyable on multiple levels (team, solo, PvE & PvP) and you are on to a winner.  Create a game where everyone has to team, do PvP and PvE whether they like it or not is likely to get you only a smaller core fanbase who are more likely to jump when something else piques their interest.

 I disagree the DZ will be empty if the items can be obtained elsewhere.  Some people will always want to be arsehats to others.  Items are much easier to find in greater numbers in the DZ and if it is harder in PvE to get the same loot, as you have to run dailies / incursions, then some will still prefer the DZ route.

I believe if you force people in to situations they don't like whilst pretending to provide entertainment, people may do it for a while and then they will give up and move on.  If you give people a great time and bring in new fresh content every now and then you will grow a positive fan base who will most likely stick with you until you quit or something significantly better comes along.

Sure I like to use Sentries as it fits my play style better but why does that have to make grinding HVT completely out of scope.  Surely there should be a decent chance of a Sentries drop (maybe 40 for LoneStar and 5-10% for the rest of the gear sets) to make it worth taking the chance and grinding for it.

My feeling is also that the GS overlap is way too high and the upgrades are usually far to significant.  A little better again and again and again is better than crap, crap, crap, super good, crap, crap, crap etc....

I have just downgraded from my GS182 M1A to a GS163 version because it is only 2k rpm worse and has much better talents.   That is the first one I have found in weeks of play.  I got two on the same day in HVT quite a while again and they were terrible rolls.  I cant seem to find a good high level sniper (even doing UG / Heroic / Incursion) now but have G36's poking out of every orifice (for a gun that is over powered and they are going to nerf, you would have thought they would have restricted its distribution).

Forcing a large groups of players in to activities they really don't want to do does not sound like good commercial strategy to me and I truly want this game to succeed.  Like many others I believe it has great potential and the attention to detail in the visuals is just superb.

Something that is also quite commonly overlooked is that Natchai and any community manager probably have very little power or influence in the games direction and design.

 

[DeadSockPuppet]

As a PS4 player, I'm stuck mainly getting gear from HVTs and the daily and weekly missions, because the group I work with tends to get rolled in the DZ and we struggle to get through incursions.  While we have enough LS to armor all of China, we're still at least getting something and occasionally we get something different and useful.  

We're mostly casual gamers and prefer to get something for our time, so grinding DZ for a couple hours only to keep getting ganked or running incursions for a couple hours and not finishing them both suck because you get little (maybe a supply drop or two) or nothing for your time.  While I understand the game isn't designed for casual gamers (since casuals make up only like 10% of gamers for any particular game), we do hand over $60 on the games we play and would appreciate some chance at getting all of the gear available. 

As such, I agree with the thought of sets rotating through the different activities.  This would appease all groups: Devs because players would probably rotate activities to get certain gear sets, hardcore players because they wouldn't have to keep grinding the same activity for a particular gear set, and us filthy casuals because we could play what we play best and have a better chance of seeing different sets rotate through what we enjoy playing.  

 

[supercat]

They can start by actually giving a sense of progression in rewards of Hard, Challenging, and Heroic missions.

Seriously. I used certain level of gears to overcome hordes of insanely strong enemies only to be given a few stuff that can't even help me to overcome what I just been through?

Speaking in analogy, why would a level 30 player, geared with level 29-30 items, to overcome enemies of level 33 and get rewarded with level 23-25 items?

 

[RimBlock]

I hear you on that.

After doing two runs of 3 phase heroic underground I ended up with maybe 3 items worth keeping and the rest was trash, including two underground stashes for leveling up. I am not really highly geared with a mix of 214, 240 and one 268 piece.  I had been using a 229 SASG-K and a 163 M1A.

Two pieces were from other sets I am looking to try (Deadeye and reclaimer) and I got a 229 SVD which, gives an extra 10k DPS over my 163 M1A and I fancy a change.

Oh but I did get a total pink skin for my weapons so now my SVD looks (XXX-Fabulous-XXX).

 

[quinch1199]

The other issue you run ... "against" ... as a player is the difference between the game you want and how you (and by "you" I mean often a large section of players) see how a game could be / should be verses how the game developer saw and continues to see the game.

Massive / Ubisoft are not alone in believing their game should be played a particular way and continue to hold onto this vision they have of how their baby should be handled and dealt with. 

THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT SITUATION TO OVERCOME!! Trust me, been there, done that ... a developer is often stubborn to the point of self-destruction regarding how they want something and often flatly refuse to see even a mass of reasoned arguments on how a game could genuinely improve.

One case in point, I worked closely with a developer of an MMO for quite some time and there was an issue which essentially enabled a glitch so that players who had in-game settings a certain way could see through cover etc and see enemy who were meant to be hidden. After months....I mean MONTHS... of constant negotiation (though this wasn't the only issue we were dealing with) this pretty much game breaking issue was just being flatly refused a fix. There were other issues we tried to address with the game play to try and enhance the game. In a similar vein to The Division, as a player representative working for the players directly with the development team our aim was to try and get the game back to the positive experiences we had in Alpha/closed beta, however it became clear this didn't match the Developers "vision" of how the game should be played ("players arent using this exploit in enough numbers") or how they wanted the game to be a year/two years in the future (this was a matchmaking/balancing issue that they set as an almost unrealistic metric).

Oddly, 18 months after we parted company mainly due to the developers intransigence, they've put a fix in to stop the exploit! lol!

So, moral is, often you're beating your head against a brick wall and all you can do is enjoy the parts of the game you do enjoy. End of the day its a game...if the part of it that's the part you wish to play is not enjoyable then all you can do sometimes is move on.