Do we need further segregation in the DZ?

[Xeromaus]

Some posts here have been moved from:



.....at posters behest

Not the best time but hey, ups and downs.  Maybe it will be a bit better when the new patch hits and the high GS guys get pushed in to another category :1_grinning: .

It'll never get better, it'll just get delayed. You'll be in 201+ eventually, and much later than the others that will have farmed it to death.

Think happy thoughts.

 

[Xeromaus]

As a counter point, we had an experience last night:

In the process of dispatching a rogue, a random player shoved himself into the crossfire and marked us as rogue. We were instantly under fire as well. The remaining non rogues fighting us had to be dispatched, and were. Now we had a 90+ second timer. We didn't go off in search of others to kill, we resumed farming bosses, moving on to the refueling station.

Downed the boss, healed up, and were off to see Torch or Animal at the extraction zone, and as our timer is winding down to nothing, we're hit by a group of agents (and by "we", I mean me, and in the back no less). There were four of us grouped, the attackers didn't have a chance, but what were we to do? Of course we kill them.

They held out as long as their sigs were active, but as soon as they couldn't pop another, they scattered (if this is your tactic, leave the rogues alone). Should we have just let them run? Maybe, but they came at us first, so no. Forcing them to spread out, they were quickly dispatched, with the last one almost getting away. He had a solid head start, full health, lots of cover to duck in and out of, and I could have just let him run. I'm sure he was boiling mad when my BMAK ripped his head off at 80 meters, literally a step before he could run behind a truck and complete his escape.

They didn't come back, we didn't go looking for them. We let our timer die in the way we planned, farming bosses until it fell off. I'm sure there's a player out there with a story that higher level players are making the DZ unfair thanks to that fight, or that rogues ruin the experience (probably that last guy), and the way he tells it, it sounds correct.

My point is simply this; we all know there's trouble to be found in the DZ...there is ALWAYS some group out there that can wreck you or your team. If you step into the zone, you're acknowledging that you may get decimated, regardless of your plans to use it as a PvE farming run. We accepted that fact, and took the time to gear up, more time to group up, and even more time working on our tactics/build as a team, all to lessen the chances of it being us that gets destroyed.

Should we be punished for that? Should the DZ or rogue system be nerfed so no one has to take that time in the future? I don't think so, and neither does anyone that's put the time in to get to where they are. The only stories you hear about things being "too tough" or "unfair" are coming from those that aren't taking the time to properly prepare, and it shouldn't be those players dictating the future direction of the DZ.

Sometimes we get spanked, but there's no whining/complaining about it when it happens...we were outmatched or got out-played, and we have no issue recognizing that. It just becomes incentive to work harder in the future, and that's a good thing.

 

[RimBlock]

It's not cheap thrills. It's whoever is in the way gets laced thrills. If it's a low level so be it. If it's a High level, so be it. We don't discriminate. 

Potato / par-tar-toh   :12_slight_smile: .

My point is simply this; we all know there's trouble to be found in the DZ...there is ALWAYS some group out there that can wreck you or your team. If you step into the zone, you're acknowledging that you may get decimated, regardless of your plans to use it as a PvE farming run. We accepted that fact, and took the time to gear up, more time to group up, and even more time working on our tactics/build as a team, all to lessen the chances of it being us that gets destroyed.

Should we be punished for that? Should the DZ or rogue system be nerfed so no one has to take that time in the future? I don't think so, and neither does anyone that's put the time in to get to where they are. The only stories you hear about things being "too tough" or "unfair" are coming from those that aren't taking the time to properly prepare, and it shouldn't be those players dictating the future direction of the DZ.

Sometimes we get spanked, but there's no whining/complaining about it when it happens...we were outmatched or got out-played, and we have no issue recognizing that. It just becomes incentive to work harder in the future, and that's a good thing.

Sounds like a good night.

If you get attacked then it is fair play to wreck the attackers.  Of course it is, doubly so if you are rogue and they try to take you on.  They make their choice and pay the price.  My only disagreement is deliberately attacking players who have no hope of being able to fight back.  By having finer categories there should not be massively over powered groups DZs (unless they deliberately nerf their GS).

Having GS areas for <163, 163 -> 182, 182 -> 214, 214 -> 240 could potentially cure a lot of this as people would be playing with like minded players with roughly the same level of dedication to the grind (give or take some lucky drops).

If you feel killing people who cannot fight back is fine then presumably you would be in favor of a single GS DZ with no limits ?.

I disagree the top tier should dictate how the DZ should be.  The majority should drive it.  After all, for a game to thrive it needs to appeal to the masses and not to just the most dedicated.

If people being gunned down in the back by people flip flopping in and out of rogue status is because they have not spend enough time gearing up,  what would you suggest should be the required stats to go in to the DZ (fire / health / tech / armour / DPS etc) and stand a reasonible chance ?.  What sort of stats would players need to go against @HHHope on a rampage ?.

 

[Xeromaus]

Potato / par-tar-toh   :12_slight_smile: .

Sounds like a good night.

If you get attacked then it is fair play to wreck the attackers.  Of course it is, doubly so if you are rogue and they try to take you on.  They make their choice and pay the price.  My only disagreement is deliberately attacking players who have no hope of being able to fight back.  By having finer categories there should not be massively over powered groups DZs (unless they deliberately nerf their GS).

Having GS areas for <163, 163 -> 182, 182 -> 214, 214 -> 240 could potentially cure a lot of this as people would be playing with like minded players with roughly the same level of dedication to the grind (give or take some lucky drops).

If you feel killing people who cannot fight back is fine then presumably you would be in favor of a single GS DZ with no limits ?.

I disagree the top tier should dictate how the DZ should be.  The majority should drive it.  After all, for a game to thrive it needs to appeal to the masses and not to just the most dedicated.

If people being gunned down in the back by people flip flopping in and out of rogue status is because they have not spend enough time gearing up,  what would you suggest should be the required stats to go in to the DZ (fire / health / tech / armour / DPS etc) and stand a reasonible chance ?.  What sort of stats would players need to go against @HHHope on a rampage ?.

Gear scores as brackets, even that close,  would generate the same issues as now. You'll still have maxed players crushing non-maxed players. The only difference will be that they're more careful about what level of gear they push for god rolls on.

There were many times in game while I was gearing up/leveling up when I couldn't have fought back against what roamed in the DZ bracket I was a part of...so I stayed out of the DZ then and worked twords the goal of being able to fight back. I didn't see the DZ as a right just because I paid for the game, but as something to aspire to...perhaps that's where we differ.

No, the top tier SHOULDN'T dictate how it should be...but then I'm not looking at this from that view...see above.

1v1, you won't take on HHHope and win with any regularity...hell, I   wouldn't expect to beat him with any regularity, and we're a single GS apart. He's been working on his build and strats since he started in game. If you think someone just crossing the 160 line today (or even the 201+ line later) SHOULD have a chance against that, I would ask you...why? I've seen him destroy 220+ players and 170s alike, is either one somehow "fairer" than the other?

 

[RimBlock]

Gear scores as brackets, even that close,  would generate the same issues as now. You'll still have maxed players crushing non-maxed players. The only difference will be that they're more careful about what level of gear they push for god rolls on.

There were many times in game while I was gearing up/leveling up when I couldn't have fought back against what roamed in the DZ bracket I was a part of...so I stayed out of the DZ then and worked twords the goal of being able to fight back. I didn't see the DZ as a right just because I paid for the game, but as something to aspire to...perhaps that's where we differ.

No, the top tier SHOULDN'T dictate how it should be...but then I'm not looking at this from that view...see above.

1v1, you won't take on HHHope and win with any regularity...hell, I   wouldn't expect to beat him with any regularity, and we're a single GS apart. He's been working on his build and strats since he started in game. If you think someone just crossing the 160 line today (or even the 201+ line later) SHOULD have a chance against that, I would ask you...why? I've seen him destroy 220+ players and 170s alike, is either one somehow "fairer" than the other?

Maybe but the gap should be smaller and easier to bridge in a reasonable amount of time for casual gamers.  I don't claim to have any perfect solution by any means.   It would be better, in my view, to encourage players in to the DZ rather than smash them out.

Yep, we have very different views on the games PvP entitlement to play then.  That's fine.  I have very limited time to play and buy a game with the expectation of being able to play it.  I aspire to get in to the GS bracket to get me in to the DZ but not to have to be top tier equipped just to be able to have fun in there.  If that was the developers intention then the GS should be the other way round maybe or completely reworked.

Nope, taking on HHope specifically is not the point, more the question was to get your opinion on what stats are required to have a reasonable change to fight back against the roaming rogues in the upper DZ ?. 

I see you are now a mod.  Congrats  :8_laughing: .

 

[Xeromaus]

Maybe but the gap should be smaller and easier to bridge in a reasonable amount of time for casual gamers.  I don't claim to have any perfect solution by any means.   It would be better, in my view, to encourage players in to the DZ rather than smash them out.

Yep, we have very different views on the games PvP entitlement to play then.  That's fine.  I have very limited time to play and buy a game with the expectation of being able to play it.  I aspire to get in to the GS bracket to get me in to the DZ but not to have to be top tier equipped just to be able to have fun in there.  If that was the developers intention then the GS should be the other way round maybe or completely reworked.

Nope, taking on HHope specifically is not the point, more the question was to get your opinion on what stats are required to have a reasonable change to fight back against the roaming rogues in the upper DZ ?. 

I see you are now a mod.  Congrats  :8_laughing: .

The gap IS getting smaller soon, we'll see how it pans out.

I understand your view with limited time to play casually, but an online rpg of any variety stretches the abilities of those players thin as is. It's hard to make a game that caters to both crowds in this genre.

No stat levels really come to mind. You could run an electronics build and destroy most players in the DZ, top end or not.

Yeah, I am...thanks for noticing :1_grinning: It's just a result of living here though lmao

 

[HHHope]

IMO GS is absolutely irrelevant man. Like xero said we've taken out 220's in a clip and  I've been destroyed by sub 200's. You're forgetting the most important thing is this game. Movement & aim. Dropping someone with a GS 220 usually means I outsmarted them or out shot them , bounced around so they couldn't hit me.  Something went in my favor. 

You think about a the kids that cheesed the incursion and geared up but are horrible,When there was honest people like myself @Xeromaus and many others who learned the game learned some movements and geared up legit. So now that we're actually somewhat geared up were ages ahead of those losers who cheesed.  I dunno , that's partially why I have no remorse on shooting whatever GS I see. Simply because , just because they're a lower GS doesn't mean they're not good at the game and can't hold their own. 

 

[RimBlock]

Disagree it is irrelevant but, yep but it is the only common point of reference that Massive have given us for the overall strength of the items the player is carrying.  I fully agree that it is deeply flawed.  Is a player with a GS of 170 likely to be able to take you down or are they likely to be totally outclassed by gear / build ?.

Most things being fairly equal, skill should always be the deciding factor but being able to kill someone in 2 hits rather than 20 hits surely skews at least some of the skill advantage.  The effort and skill of builds and the luck of being able to get items (drops or crafted) which have the stat you need in order to achieve that build obviously play in to this too.

Fully agree on the players who are just tailgating other teams to level up or glitching / cheating.  They will have very little skill even if they have the equipment.  I am still grinding, without doing any of those as it just cheapens any victory.  I just don't have the time available to me to dedicate to the game due to family, work and life commitments.  

I don't believe that should exclude me or lots of other casual gamers from being able to enjoy the DZ without have to spend months / years grinding casually because others who have significantly more time to dedicate are allowed to run around with pretty unassailable builds.  The problem is partly with being in the mid range of a top bracket and during my timezone there are not so many players so my experience is likely to be very different to yours.

 Addition of the new GS bracket so you can play with higher geared players may prove to generate challenge for you and hopefully improve your overall experience.  With people able to easily artificially deflate their GS, I suspect some will just do that and continue to roam with little challenge or risk in lower GS areas just mowing down other players for the lolz.  Sorting that out will require a GS rework or substitution for something better.

Clearly the community does not seem to wish to moderate itself so it will be up to massive to impose rules to manage the different gaming groups.  Maybe they favor the more hardcore gamers and are happy for them to run riot and so will not do much to change that play style.  Maybe there are enough of these players to keep the game running for a long time and that is cool but on the other hand maybe they also want to capture the casual gamer crowd and see that allowing top level gamers to act like this will erode significant number from that player base.  From a business standpoint, making life difficult for a large proportion of potential customers is not usually the road to great success or longevity.  I love the game for the most part and would like to see it extend in to the far future and to help that I believe it has to appeal to a larger user base than the hard core grinders / build tuners.

Only time will tell if I am right or wrong I guess.

 

[Oh. daesu]

I think to have no grind, needs a game with no endgame. Which means a lot of effort to continue content at a sufficient pace to avoid players quitting. That wouldn't be cheap. 

Also, how should people go rogue on you? It was sounding like zero tolerance of anyone doing so.

 

[RimBlock]

I think to have no grind, needs a game with no endgame. Which means a lot of effort to continue content at a sufficient pace to avoid players quitting. That wouldn't be cheap. 

Also, how should people go rogue on you? It was sounding like zero tolerance of anyone doing so.

It seems I may not have been as clear as I should have.

I am not suggesting no grind.  I am suggesting that those who are dedicated and have the time available to grind heavily may be better placed against others of the same category.  People who are casual gamers would also need to grind but putting them in the same category as the heavy grinders who significantly outmatch them is not likely to keep the casual gamers interested.  Without the heavy grind, the casual gamers would not get access to the top end gear and that is fine, that is the big difference.  How to sort the casual from the dedicated gamers out.... no idea but as this is a forum, maybe others would like to chip in (probably better in another thread for it though).

The sucker punch option of shooting others in the back to go rogue is unlikely to change.  People will take every advantage as that is a tactically smart thing to do.  I don't like it but so what  :12_slight_smile: .   It is more about the massively overpowered groups slaughtering anyone they come across for no real gain.  If they are unlikely to be able to pose any challenge then why not just watch them tremble and scamper at the passing of your mighty feet  :1_grinning: . 

I would enjoy a good rogue chase down in an environment where I thought it would lead to a good gun fight and there would at least be an chance of the team I am in being able to take the rogue out.  I had no problem when "The Australian" rode through and gunned us both down and I was happy to fight back and die.  I do have an issue with players constantly actively seeking our group out, ignoring all else and cutting us down (through multiple respawns and moves to other areas) when they see it is clear we cannot beat them.  

I have not seen any big battles where players all go after the rogue in our timezone, unless they went rogue when lots of players just happened to be around, but maybe my timing is just poor.  If that sort of thing did happen in our TZ then it may make life a bit more palatable but these players just seem to roam around pretty much unopposed.

I am also not so keen on loosing DZ XP for dying to the point you will end up loosing levels.  Loose XP to the beginning of your currently level would be great but the moment you start loosing levels because some team or top tier players just constantly gun for you makes grinding in the DZ for access to better BPs (against AI or players) pretty pointless.

Again, these comments are meant to be constructive and I fully understand that some will not alike or agree with them (I suspect especially those running around gunning down low end player for fun) but a reasonable discussion can bring out some good ideas.  There is also no reason things have to be the way I would prefer them.  I would just like the game to live long and prosper.

 

[Oh. daesu]

Actually, you're right about it being the wrong thread. Maybe snip it out and post it a dedicated thread or one of the other dz suggestion threads.

the nature of the thread is more causal, more stories, peeps experiences...

 

[Xeromaus]

It seems I may not have been as clear as I should have.

I am not suggesting no grind.  I am suggesting that those who are dedicated and have the time available to grind heavily may be better placed against others of the same category.  People who are casual gamers would also need to grind but putting them in the same category as the heavy grinders who significantly outmatch them is not likely to keep the casual gamers interested.  Without the heavy grind, the casual gamers would not get access to the top end gear and that is fine, that is the big difference.  How to sort the casual from the dedicated gamers out.... no idea but as this is a forum, maybe others would like to chip in (probably better in another thread for it though).

What you're suggesting is essentially a separate game for those with limited time or non-hardcore play styles. While it sounds good in theory to some, it's absolutely unfeasible from a marketing standpoint. There's a large market for hardcore gamers, and an equally large market for casuals. Within each group, it's up to the individual to choose what games they purchase/play, but it's not the burden of the developers to change the product after launch to accommodate either group.

 

[RimBlock]

What you're suggesting is essentially a separate game for those with limited time or non-hardcore play styles. While it sounds good in theory to some, it's absolutely unfeasible from a marketing standpoint. There's a large market for hardcore gamers, and an equally large market for casuals. Within each group, it's up to the individual to choose what games they purchase/play, but it's not the burden of the developers to change the product after launch to accommodate either group.

Then why is there any segregation in the DZ at all ?.  

It would seem fairly logical to assume the hardcore grinders would have better equipment due to the time and dedication spent.  Isn't segregating due to gear score some crude form of trying to separate new from casual from hardcore (when patch 1.2 comes out with its new DZ tier) ?.

Remember they tried to segregate due to DZ level first and that failed terribly, partly due to people cheating and glitching so what should have been a grind that would have knocked them up levels as they got better equipment resulted in very low level DZ players with very high level equipment.  Then they changed to GS to try and sort this out.

Woh, shortest answer from me ever  :10_wink: .

 

[RimBlock]

Actually, you're right about it being the wrong thread. Maybe snip it out and post it a dedicated thread or one of the other dz suggestion threads.

the nature of the thread is more causal, more stories, peeps experiences...

Yep, maybe our new mod has the power to move to a new thread for us ? 

 

[Xeromaus]

@Oh. daesu, @RimBlock, @HHHope:

Posts regarding The DZ not specifically pertaining to "Dark Zone Stories" have been moved here. I may have missed a few, or got something out of order, but this is what it is now.

 

[Oh. daesu]

I am not suggesting no grind.  I am suggesting that those who are dedicated and have the time available to grind heavily may be better placed against others of the same category.  People who are casual gamers would also need to grind but putting them in the same category as the heavy grinders who significantly outmatch them is not likely to keep the casual gamers interested.  Without the heavy grind, the casual gamers would not get access to the top end gear and that is fine, that is the big difference.  How to sort the casual from the dedicated gamers out.... no idea but as this is a forum, maybe others would like to chip in (probably better in another thread for it though).

The sucker punch option of shooting others in the back to go rogue is unlikely to change.  People will take every advantage as that is a tactically smart thing to do.  I don't like it but so what  :12_slight_smile: .   It is more about the massively overpowered groups slaughtering anyone they come across for no real gain.  If they are unlikely to be able to pose any challenge then why not just watch them tremble and scamper at the passing of your mighty feet  :1_grinning: . 

I would enjoy a good rogue chase down in an environment where I thought it would lead to a good gun fight and there would at least be an chance of the team I am in being able to take the rogue out.  I had no problem when "The Australian" rode through and gunned us both down and I was happy to fight back and die.  I do have an issue with players constantly actively seeking our group out, ignoring all else and cutting us down (through multiple respawns and moves to other areas) when they see it is clear we cannot beat them.  

I have not seen any big battles where players all go after the rogue in our timezone, unless they went rogue when lots of players just happened to be around, but maybe my timing is just poor.  If that sort of thing did happen in our TZ then it may make life a bit more palatable but these players just seem to roam around pretty much unopposed.

I am also not so keen on loosing DZ XP for dying to the point you will end up loosing levels.  Loose XP to the beginning of your currently level would be great but the moment you start loosing levels because some team or top tier players just constantly gun for you makes grinding in the DZ for access to better BPs (against AI or players) pretty pointless.

What mechanism would you think could be used now to segregate the hardcore grinders and the casuals? Bear in mind GS# currently serves that purpose. DZ level wouldn't be good as really gear is more relevant than length of time in the DZ. Not certain about a kill death ratio though have to think it thru as there are problems to jump.

Not that Ubisoft would befollowing and taking under advisement. 

Losing xp on being killed? Take that away and agents will stand outside safe houses farming each other. Really, ai seems to hurt more, rogues have never set me back as a nett affect. 

For myself, dz is more fun than anything. I'm curious what other changes. 

 

[RimBlock]

Yep GS is meant to but it can be nerfed pretty easily.  Using top weapon rather than combined weapon scores when calculating GS would help with this.

Some of this is due to the gap between the entry GS level of 163 right up to the max with nowhere for the top level players to go and little for them to do.  The new tier being implemented will hopefully help.

Ultimate solution, not sure.  Will probably take better more experienced minds than mind to find a good solution.  Individual GS specific tiers (163 / 182/ 214/ 240) DZs may fragment the player base too much.  The kill to death ratio would help with skill level but not take in to account equipment.   A GS & kill to death ratio may help to bridge both the sides (gear & skill) with k2d resetting in each DZ tier.  Needs a lot more thought than 'off the top of our head' answers though.

The point about ZP farming is good and not something I had considered.

 

[Oh. daesu]

It is back to the status quo, or at least close to it. I was mainly asking to gain an understanding of your thoughts. I guess mostly you don't like roaming 4 member rogue squads tromping your patch. ubisft is prolly not listening.

Yes if the bracket gets too granular than it ruins more positive matching as oppose to more matching you to an instance with rogues on the run down.

 

[Big Grumper]

Am I the only one who hates the DZ? I get that it's a necessary evil but you cannot trust anyone. I'd be happier if they made it pure PvP and had done with it. I am sick of helping other agents in a firefight, only for them to kill me and steal my stuff when my back is turned. 

 

[supercat]

Am I the only one who hates the DZ? I get that it's a necessary evil but you cannot trust anyone. I'd be happier if they made it pure PvP and had done with it. I am sick of helping other agents in a firefight, only for them to kill me and steal my stuff when my back is turned. 

That's why I avoid myself from being level 30. The DZ most of the time will be empty and even if you meet someone else, they're most likely people who want to farm just like you.

Level 30 is the bottom of the pipe. It's where all the shit get clogged.

And yeah, they should have just made PvE map filled with DZ-style enemies, loots, and chests for people who have reached 30 and finished all missions and side missions. Make a bracket so people can't power level their under-leveled friends in this new PvE map.

Btw, I'm planning to just replay mission on Hard and Challenging when me and my friend turned 30. I don't know about my friend, but if I found by that time that doing PvE missions isn't worth anywhere better than DZ, then I guess I'll just simply drop the game. lol